Ghost’s debut album, Opus Eponymous, caused a stir when it was released in 2010, but it was 2013’s Infestissumam which saw them stepping up to the next level. Hammer caught up with A Nameless Ghoul – aka mainman Tobias Forge – in 2013 to talk Satan and success.
The sun is coming up in Melbourne, Australia. Light is beaming in through a chink in the curtains of an anonymous hotel room.
“The sun’s rising, unfortunately,” says one of Ghost’s five Nameless Ghouls, who has either just woken up or not yet been to bed. It’s hard to tell. “But it will set again eventually. In celebration of the resignation of the leader of the Catholic Church, I need to pour some complimentary milk into my coffee. Could you excuse me?”
In the time between Hammer’s scheduled interview with Ghost in Sweden and finally tracking them down some eight days and 10,000 miles later, the Catholic church has been rocked with more allegations of inappropriate behaviour from one its eminent Cardinals, and its leader – The Pope himself – has become the first to resign in 600 years. Tomorrow he will leave the Vatican and adopt the new title ‘Emeritus Pope’. As the Ghoul prepares his coffee the thought strikes us: we know the perfect Papal replacement. He’s called Papa Emeritus II. He is Ghost’s ‘new’ singer and though he follows a rather different philosophy he already has the headgear.
“Well I wouldn’t be interested,” says the Nameless Ghoul. “But Papa II might have been. These last weeks have been confusing for him. The thought might have crossed his mind but he already has a new job with us now. Like the church, we’re now entering a new era with a new Papa.”
A quick recap before things get confusing. You may know that Ghost – now called Ghost BC in the US due to legal reasons – arrived out of nowhere, their concept fully realised with their 2010 Rise Above debut Opus Eponymous.
But for the release of new album Infestissumam the Nameless Ghouls replaced frontman Papa Emeritus with new singer Papa Emeritus II during a show in December 2012. Only it’s the same man. Maybe. And he’s the person talking to us now – but we’re definitely not supposed to know it’s him. Even the record company won’t tell us who we’re speaking to. But we know. We know it is him. Papa Emeritus I and II. Confused? Don’t be. When all is said and done, it’s only rock’n’roll.
“You never saw the backstage ritual where, to the sound of You’re The Voice, Papa II was given what we call ‘the new voice’,” croaks Papa I/Papa II/Nameless Ghoul.
Hang on a minute. Do you mean You’re The Voice, the acclaimed ’80s power ballad by John Farnham?
“That’s exactly what I mean. You have to understand that they are two quite different people, but the voice and movement pattern of Papa I were ultimately transferred to Papa II. It’s almost like that ancient kung fu way of teaching the old religious culture, with the monkey and the tiger, you know what I mean?”
To be absolutely honest, not at all. So what’s the difference between Papa I and Papa II?
“There’s a slight age difference. Old Papa was around 80, whereas Papa II is around 50, maybe 55. So Papa II is a little bit more… vivid.”
Will there be a time when Papa II will pass on the spirit to Papa III? Then IV and V? You could be the band that never dies.
“Possibly. But you know, we were so surprised that no-one saw this change coming. Truly. We really thought it was so obvious that this would happen.”
Well, it does seem very obvious now that you’ve explained it. Perhaps people just weren’t paying enough attention to you and the band?
“I guess the whole world doesn’t revolve around us.”
Maybe one day it will.
“Maybe it will. If we try hard enough, maybe it will.”
Ghost are a band on the cusp. As it stands they have the potential to be the first band to take a marginalised genre to the mainstream. They could conceivably be (whisper it) the first doom-pop band.
Their major label debut, Infestissumam is an album those who have been waiting their whole lives for piano ballads about putrefaction, or wish that Ville Valo would sing love songs about corpses. It’s a collection for those who dream of staging The Omen: The Musical starring King Diamond and Michael Ball, or ever wondered what The Doors might have sounded like had they feasted on goat bones in a Scandinavian sepulchre rather than fresh oranges in the Californian sunshine. Ghost are a band for people who like ABBA and Cathedral, or would watch X Factor if it only allowed cover versions of Bewitched by Candlemass and was presented by one ‘Simon Cowl’.
But they’re also interesting because they’re a band who cite an unerring devotion to Satan, yet simultaneously have one eye on record sales and arenas waiting to be filled. Devil worship is an intrinsic aspect of Ghost, but so, you suspect, is a glaring ambition to become as big as Manson or Slipknot – two similarly grandiose artists who they resemble rhetorically, if not musically.
“It’s interesting you mention The Omen because it is a very realistic and gripping portrait of an Anti-Christ coming to Earth,” says Papa II. “It is about one man’s rise to power. But by the final scene of the trilogy the writer suddenly has God’s hand come down and put a stop to everything. It’s completely stupid. And that sums up a lot of issues to me about people’s opinions of Satanism and devil worshipping. Our first album had a lot of nuances. Opus Eponymous had a literal meaning: it was about ultra orthodox devil- worshipping that tickled our appetite for horror, old rock and underground metal, and which could exist without intellectual thinking. But we also explored subliminal philosophical and theological ideas too. For example, in a world of dunces, everything good is seen as Godly, and every- thing bad is blamed on the devil. Yet it’s the Church who promote a lot of things that are genuinely bad for mankind. And that basically is what Ghost are about. Never has an institution put its followers through such turmoil. Ironically, we’re not inverting what the Church does – we’re basically doing the same thing. We’ve just drawn a little moustache on it to draw attention.”
With the first album you were “creating a soundtrack to the end of mankind”. Are these ideas you’ve carried over onto the Infestissumam album?
“The new album is foremost about the presence of the devil,” says Papa II, warming to the subject. “It deals with the relationship that the individual has with the presence of darkness, and what we identify as the devil. It deals with real issues. Each of our songs point towards the end of the world. Because everyone’s running around like idiots trying to find their own path when everyone really knows that in order to survive an economic crisis or a natural catastrophe you have to pull together. Everyone knows this, but instead they choose to do their own thing.”
But isn’t that what makes humans human – free will?
“Right. And that’s the devil. That’s the Anti-Christ.”
An articulate and thoughtful man, Papa Emeritus is far less dry than he appears in print. During the interview there are laughs and digressions into the more mundane aspects of being in a band. Like how absurd it is for a band like Ghost to be wearing cloaks in the midday sun. But for the moment, sweating in the sun is a small price to pay to fuel the band mythology and build a fanbase.
“To establish yourself in fans’ hearts, mystery is important,” he explains. “The fan/band relationship is based on platonic love. It’s about sexual desire, but it remains unconsummated. In rock, a heterosexual male can almost experience falling in love with another male because they might find them so compelling or interesting. Mystery contributes to that. Our anonymity was never a commercial move – it was an aesthetic choice – but seeing what it is has resulted in perhaps sets us apart. We do not display a desperate need for acceptance like some bands.”
Do you think more bands would benefit from an air of mystery?
“A lot of bands are just dudes with tattoos singing (adopting a sarcastic American accent), ‘Why man? My father did this. He didn’t do that… fuck you!’ That’s not too smart. I think we’re multi-faceted and having a sense of humour is very important. We view ourselves not only as a rock’n’roll act, but from a cinematic or authorial standpoint too. Onstage we are a different entity to in our private lives. Think of movies: often in horror, drama or thrillers, a single joke provides release. Humour is important to quell the unnerving tension. A lot of band take themselves way too seriously.”
As do, occasionally, fans. Such a rapid rise inevitably draws criticism from fundamentalist corners of the metal brethren. Are they untroubled by the transition from Rise Above to Universal?
“We are aware of an expectancy of sales now,” says Papa II. “We were on an eclectic label, but we have turned into a band you need to ‘break’. Our idea has always been to go into bigger productions. Bigger crowds. Bigger everything.”
Old Papa II certainly talks a good talk and if new single, Secular Haze, is anything to go by, Ghost are only just getting started. The only downside of rapid rises are rapid falls. Which leaves just one question: where does he see them in 10 years?
“Because of the nature of this band, it’s not guaranteed to be interesting for a long time,” he says. “We have two more records planned and we aspire to play arenas. The hardest part is knowing when to quit. We don’t want to bore ourselves or our listeners. We won’t be a treadmill band and we completely understand that Ghost will not be around forever.”
Originally published in Metal Hammer issue 243
